Greg :
You find the audience that you think needs your service. You find where they're at, whether they're at expos, they're at events, they're at schools, they're there, wherever they're at. And then you start to poll them and you ask them, do you need the thing that I think you need and get feedback from them.
Greg :
This is secrets for success. Awesome. Welcome to the Secrets for Success podcast. I'm your host, Greg Todd. Today I have actually, this is going to be an amazing story. I have Derek Rodriguez and I have Deb Dorsett, and they are the co founders of Circle Therapy and Circle Education. We're going to talk about both. I want to welcome the both of you to the podcast.
Deb:
Yeah, we're excited to be awesome.
Greg :
Awesome. All right, so, Deb, tell me a little bit more about yourself. You're an occupational therapist, right? And how did circle therapy come about?
Deb:
Yeah, so I entered Ot because of my children and they received OT, and I just really bonded with wanting to do that the best possible way for kids. So entered the OT space for them and then had worked for other companies. Loved a bunch of part of that. Worked in clinics, worked in home settings, and then Covid hit and things were pretty tricky at other places and just kind of wanted to do things different and was very frustrated at what I was able to do. And Derek said, let's just do this better. Not knocking anyone else's thing, but just like, let's do OT, but let's do it different. Let's do it the way that we see doing it. And so, yeah, I left my place and he was not working in the therapy space.
Deb:
He is not a therapist, but he left his job of 17 years. We pulled his four hundred and one k and we said, okay, we're going to go do this our way.
Greg :
Wow. And so what was the official date.
Deb:
Of that starting we incorporated? December 2019. I think I was an OTA. So at the time that we did that, I had not yet graduated OT school, so I was practicing as an Ota. And so then incorporated December 2019. Got my OT license September 25. I think of 2020. Was evaluating my first clients in circle therapy. September 20 eigth.
Deb:
I think of 2020.
Greg :
Wow.
Deb:
We kind of did a little bit of lining up, but March of 2020 is when he did the dive and left and we just went all in. We jumped off a cliff together.
Greg :
So what did you see that she couldn't see?
Derek:
Some of it was personal to her because I saw her coming home frustrated with the situations that she was in with other companies.
Greg :
Right.
Derek:
Situations that she had fundamental disagreements about. And I heard her ideas, and I was like, why don't you just do your own thing? And she was like, well, I don't know how to do that. And we got to looking at it, and I said, you know what? I have this money sitting over here. Yeah, it's for the future, but if this works out, that is a future much better.
Greg :
Yeah.
Derek:
So we pulled it and went, and it took her a little while to get the confidence to say, okay, let's do it. I don't think she believed enough in herself at first when I proposed it, and it took her a little bit to say, okay, let's jump off this cliff.
Greg :
How long were you coda before you became.
Deb:
So. My mom is an OT, so I feel like I've known about OT forever, but I think I graduated 2014 at otch. I had been working for a while. Pediatrics, my whole career, feeding my whole career. That's always been my love and my jam.
Greg :
Right. So you start the business, you incorporate September 25. Right? Or, sorry, you incorporated December 19, but you started in September 2020. Correct. Describe to me how it started. Because you guys went all in. You ponied up at this thing, right?
Deb:
It was pretty scary when we started because Covid happened. Right. So when we opened, it was like mid flames of COVID So we both left our prospective places in about March or April of 2020. So I was working full time, doing my field work, so not being paid, but finishing up field work for OT school. So, yeah, when we started, Derek was doordashing. I was babysitting and car washing and house sitting and anything we could do so that we could put all of our energy into circle therapy and that dream, and we've just been so lucky to find a community to serve there.
Greg :
Right. Wow. So how many clients are you all seeing today? Kind of give me an idea of who you're serving and the type of clientele that you're seeing.
Deb:
Yeah. So we see children mostly in the natural environment, so in their homes or in their daycares or at their grandma's house or wherever they are. We do have a very small clinic space, but that's not the focus of what we do. We have somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 to 225 weekly scheduled appointments and a team of about 15 therapists that are just as passionate as we are, and we just love our team.
Greg :
You know, I'm hearing this, and you started in 2020. This is amazing, like, what you all were able to do. Now, can I ask you this? Are you a serial entrepreneur and have you been doing entrepreneurship for many years? Deb, can I ask you, are you a serial entrepreneur and been doing entrepreneurship for many?
Deb:
I have always. I love helping people, and I love figuring out what works and what doesn't work. And my mind is always active with problem solving for the people that I love. So I don't know that I identified myself in that way until the last few years.
Greg :
Or maybe I should ask this, have you had businesses before?
Deb:
I have not worked for myself in this full time, sort of.
Greg :
Okay. So it's interesting because I think most people that are listening to the podcast would say everything that she just described. I'm like that, too. Like, I've got ideas this, that. Da da da. Okay, Derek, you might not have thought of yourself as an entrepreneur, but you just saw, wait a minute. You're not Deb, you're not able to do things in the way that you feel like it should be done. Why don't we just go and do our own thing, and you can do it in a way that you feel would better the clients and their families.
Greg :
And so I guess my point in it, as I'm listening to this, is we're in 2023 as we're recording this podcast. You haven't been in business for ten years. You have 15 therapists. Is that right? Is that what you said? 15?
Deb:
Yeah. The dynamics just are always in flux a little bit. I think once you're a certain size. But I think our total, not including Derek and I, is us plus 15 people.
Greg :
Okay.
Deb:
Most of those are therapists.
Greg :
Yeah, I guess where I'm going with this, this is called the Secrets for Success podcast. And there are people that have been in business for 10, 15, 20 years and have not been able to impact the amount of people that you all are impacting in a week and a month. And they've been in business for eight times longer than you have been. And I'm here trying to figure out why. What is it about you all that you did different that they can't do? So I think I have some ideas. But would you all say that the fact that you went all in and not just all in, like, yeah, let's go do this, you took out 401k money, right. To do this. And it seemed like you couldn't look back because you went all in and you went all in pretty big from the get go.
Greg :
I mean, would you say that or any other things that I'm missing?
Deb:
Yeah, the jump helped. There was another thing, two other things that we did that. I feel like are critical because I get asked that question sometimes. The jump forced us to have to adapt. There was no problem that could come up that the answer would be, okay, well, we'll just go do something else. That was not an acceptable, that wasn't a possible answer. Right. And so I think the jump of just being all in forces you to be more creative.
Greg :
Right.
Deb:
But the two other things that we did is we knew that we only wanted to do feel good, passionate, best practice work. We're not going to entertain anything else. And then the last thing we did is we did a very intentional needs assessment. We looked at our communities and we said, we don't want to offer something that's not needed, but what do we have to give? What does our community need? And then we just tried to speak to that need for them and find a match.
Greg :
Okay, can we talk about that last one real quick? So you did a needs assessment. How did you pull that off? Because I think if more people did this before they started a business endeavor, I think we would have a much higher clip of success in business. I think most people are just saying, this is what I think people need, and then they're going, quote unquote, all in. You did a needs assessment. Can you explain what that kind of looked like? What were some of the questions that you asked, et cetera?
Deb:
Yeah, I don't know that we spent a ton of time on it, but what I wanted to know was, I know what I'm good at. I know what I can offer, but I don't know who needs that. And so I literally spent time calling doctors offices, and I had a lot of events in those first couple of months of being open where anywhere families were, because I'm a pediatric clinician, I've only ever worked in peeds. That's what I'm passionate about. And then within that, the feeding space. So anywhere where children or families were. So if there was a fair, I had a booth, if there was a back to school backpack, whatever, I had a booth. And I didn't even have a purpose with the booth.
Deb:
I was just going to be there to talk to people. And I just asked people like, oh, you have children. What do you need help with? Oh, you're a pediatric, you're a pediatrician, you're serving children. What are you stuck with? And then we served that need. Right?
Greg :
As you're listening to this, I hope you all are taking notes. You find the audience that you think needs your service. You find where they're at, whether they're at expos, they're at events, they're at schools, wherever they're at. And then you start to pull them, and you ask them, do you need the thing that I think you need? And get feedback from them? Correct.
Deb:
I don't know that I even asked that. I just said, what do you need?
Greg :
What you need?
Deb:
I'm a pediatric ot. I work in feeding. What do you need for your family? And just listened. I think if we would have started without asking that question, we probably would have put our money in opening a clinic near our home, because that was my comfort space.
Greg :
Right.
Deb:
And because we listened, instead, we did home based services. Funnily enough, most of our clients are not in the county that we live in. We serve all the counties around, but there's very good coverage from other companies in the county we live. But we found out Davidson county doesn't need pediatric ots, but Randolph County, 20 minutes away, has a waitlist from here to the moon.
Greg :
Got you.
Deb:
So, we were able to follow the need, and that was important because we really wanted to do something genuine and meaningful. It doesn't matter if you're offering something that people don't need. It only matters if you're offering something that's helping people to me and to us.
Greg :
Well, I think what you all did is you found a gap in the marketplace, something that was needed. You asked a simple question, they gave the answer, and you actually acted on the answer. A lot of times, we'll ask people for advice, or we ask them for feedback, and then they give us the feedback, and we're like, I don't want to hear it. And that's what you all did. Okay, that's really awesome. So, let's talk about some of the highs and lows of circle therapy before we get into circle education. I like to keep it authentic and real with my audience. So I'm assuming some of the cool things is the clinical freedom.
Greg :
And you're able to do things on your terms, right, and your way. What are any other cool things? And then give us some of the.
Deb:
Prioritize our family. So, like, during the school year, I personally take my kids to school. I personally pick my kids up from school. That was one of the things that I never had the ability to do at any other job. And I think we try to offer that for our team, too. And our team knows it. They have a lot of autonomy over their own. If they have an element of their personal life, like their family, that's very important to them.
Deb:
That's important to us, and they know it. So we treat our therapists like people. They are people that we value and we love. That's awesome. And that feels so rewarding. It feels terrible not to because I was a director previously for other companies, and it feels horrible to see a person that you care about and not be able to be allowed to help them the way you want to when you know that you can and there's a solution that would work for them. Yeah. I think clinical freedom for our clients, personal freedom for us, but then the ability to really love on and support our clinical team the way I would have wanted to be supported when I was a treating therapist.
Greg :
And I'm assuming that as you all are supporting the clinical team and they're feeling that love, they are transferring that over to the clients that they're serving. Right?
Deb:
Yeah. Happy therapist. Happy client.
Greg :
Happy therapist. Happy client. All right. Hasn't all been easy. Right. What are some of the tough moments?
Deb:
I think both. It goes back to that jump. That jump does a lot for you because you have to find a solution, but when things go off track, pressure is on. You have to find a solution. I think for me personally, one growing pain that I've had is allowing other people to be part of the solution, because I never want you to want for anything. Right, right. But just learning to ask from other.
Greg :
People, like staff or, like staff, other advisors.
Deb:
Okay. Like my family, like everybody. I love, love, love to give acts of service. Like, my love language all day long. And I think a lot of therapists are like that. It's very hard for us to identify to other people. So learning to delegate.
Greg :
Right. Do you think it's because we're. Because I'm the same way and I'm a recovering control freak? Actually, that's not true. I'm still a control freak. But do you think it's because we're perfectionists, or do you think it's because we just don't know how to accept help and we don't live in, like, we only want to give. We don't want to receive, and it's part of our identity. Why do you think we're like that?
Deb:
Yeah, I think receiving is definitely harder than giving. Why? Probably is different from person to person, but it is a thread like, I mean, other practice owners have the same problem.
Greg :
What do you think? It's for you.
Deb:
For me, I put a lot of personal response. I take a lot of ownership and personal responsibility in the value of taking care of someone the way that I value you, the way that I show you that I value you, is taking exceptional care of you. And so if you're working for me, like my team, it's my job to take care of them. And so I don't know. I don't know if it's a perfectionist thing, but I take that responsibility so deeply and so seriously and value it above my own needs.
Greg :
That can be a bad thing.
Deb:
It is a bad thing. Sometimes I'm getting better at communicating and having honest check ins where we've have some routines in our life right now, where not just me and Derek, we have some. But then we have now developed a clinical lead team, and that has helped disperse some of that pressure of responsibility and also opened up communication channels so that on a daily and weekly basis, we're asking those questions, hey, are you overloaded? And so I have to say yes or no. I actually have to pick a color, is the way I do it. But still, it makes me have to tell people when I'm not okay. My team loves to serve, too, so they're always like, hey, you're in red. Give me something off your plate. We need to get you to green.
Greg :
Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, Derek. What you got? Some tough stuff. Come on, bring out the juicy stuff.
Derek:
I would say probably finding the.
Derek:
Want to say courage, there's another word for it, but confidence to step into a bigger role in the company. Because I'm not a treated therapist, I'm not licensed in any way. I came from production background, right. I stood back and I was very apprehensive to jump in, and I was scared to pretty much, because I didn't want to mess up the company in some way. And she keeps pushing me and pushing me, pushing me, and I keep crawling in there, but I don't know. That's probably been the hardest thing for me, is just stepping up and being a part in the company.
Greg :
Right.
Derek:
I almost feel like early on, I didn't feel like it was my place to step in, because even though I was an owner, I don't know the industry the way she does. I don't know the clinical side of things.
Greg :
You want to know.
Derek:
Didn't know anything about insurance or anything like that.
Greg :
I think one of the craziest things is so many people have said that one of the biggest questions that I get from people that are wanting to get into entrepreneurship in the healthcare space is either a, I haven't been a clinician long enough, or I want to own a practice, but I don't want. Do I have to be a clinician to own a practice? Do you know the numbers are like 85% of owners of clinics are not therapists? Isn't that crazy? Yeah. So it's interesting that I hear that a lot, but the reality is that most people that are actually running practices, usually bigger places, they're not treating therapists, they just understand business. And I think when you, personally, I think that when you can add a therapist with someone that's not a therapist, I think it's the best match together. I even noticed for myself when I'm doing, like, I own this company outright, but whenever I'm doing any type of event or any big project, I always bring in someone that's not in healthcare for them to see the things that I might be missing. Because sometimes we're so. I guess we're such experts in our field that we think everybody gets it right. And anyways, I feel like there's a lot of value to having someone that's not in the field.
Greg :
So. So that's interesting that you said that. All right, so you have circle therapy and you've kind of gone off in this meteoric rise, obviously, the ups and downs, the roller coasters, like what we just talked about. I'm sure you've felt that with that company, but now you're moving into circle education and you have been helping people in the century in the feeding therapy space for quite a while. Can you talk about what you've been doing and what we are kind of transitioning to now?
Deb:
Yeah, I have done so many different things, it would be really hard to list them all, but I just never occurred to me that the best way to help more people would be in a more structured program. And so I think that's the big new of why circle education. But yeah, I've always led meetings for parents, or helped with orientations at different teams, or had a lot of guest lecturing. I've offered some in person courses every year for probably close to about ten years now. But, yeah, you can only help so many people that way. And when you're helping like two or three people at a time, or ten people at a time, or even 20 people at a time, the problem that kept coming back at me is there are so many families needing feeding support, there are so many children needing feeding support, there are so many clinicians who want to feel good about being a feeding therapist and just how to do that. So it's been really exciting to, and we've said, like, we're jumping off a new cliff. Now, we did that, and we did some great things, and that's been great, and we're having so much fun, but now we get to help even more people.
Greg :
Right?
Deb:
And that's exciting.
Greg :
I've been a small part of that journey, only for the last two months, of getting to kind of see this. But for those of you listening, understand that this is the journey that most people go on. They have this initial desire to do things differently than the way that their employer is telling them to do it. So they are trying to pursue clinical. So that's, in essence, what you guys did. It's like, I don't like the way that they're doing this. This could be done in a better way. There's going to be some risk to this.
Greg :
Derek, you said, all right, come on, let's pony up. Let's do this. And you did it. And then from day one, you pretty much achieved clinical freedom. Not financial freedom, not time freedom, not impact freedom, but clinical freedom. Still broke, still all that other stuff. But then over time, it's like, hey, you know what? We're doing this. We identify the needs in the marketplace.
Greg :
The market tells us, hey, this is going to give you the best shot at this actually working. You do it. You start with one, then you go to two, three, four, up to 15 therapists, give or take, as the roller coaster continues. Right? Okay. And then you have this desire, and I'm seeing this in the both of you, but we want to impact more. And you're realizing that there's a cap on this. How many therapists can. I mean, you can make it bigger, but there might be other ways that we can create more impact, right?
Deb:
Yeah, I think that's part of it. And perhaps circle therapy will keep growing. Or not. People ask me sometimes, do you want to grow it? I honestly don't care. As long as we stay who we are, right. If we serve and help more people, that would be cool. As long as we stay who we are. I think the other thing, though, of why there's a need for more is not just that you're limited to the size of your company, but the way that we have approached, I think, helping, because as we've grown, we've brought on other clinicians, and I've had to say, like, okay, here's what we're going to do in feeding therapy and onboard them to that, which is why we were getting interest from other places and other people.
Deb:
Can you help train our team? How do you get to be a feeding therapist in your first year? Of practice and your second year of practice quickly.
Greg :
Right.
Deb:
And so it just similar to when we started circle therapy. It helped us see that need isn't being met in our industry. There's such a need for feeding services, but there is not an effective solution for how to do that. And we feel that we have help there because that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. In circle therapy, our average therapist comes to us as a new graduate, does an internship with us, and then goes through our orientation process and then is doing feeding therapy from pretty much week one or week two of working with us.
Greg :
If they're not doing it in your way, in your method, how long is it typically taking in a traditional way for a therapist to become a quote.
Deb:
Unquote feeding therapist that comes to us and wants to work with us?
Greg :
Let's just say they're not, because you're saying if they're coming to work with you and they're mostly new grads, within about a week or two, you're able to get them to basically be an entry level feeding therapist. What does it look like outside of working with you, if some other random person wanted to become a feeding therapist, how does that look?
Deb:
I think that there's a lot of misconceptions in the industry, and those are very limiting to people's self confidence and their willingness because everybody knows feeding therapy is important and it's needed, but nobody wants to hurt kids. Right?
Greg :
Right.
Deb:
And so when you're talking about feeding, people really need to feel that they know that they're being safe and skilled with what they're offering. And so I think really the reason we're able to orient so quickly to stepping into that entry level feeding therapist space is because there are specific techniques of like, well, how do you make sure you're being safe? And then what skill sets are you using when you're addressing feeding?
Greg :
Got you.
Deb:
And so I think most of the resources available in the community don't answer that question. Think they teach amazing, awesome skill sets in a very specialized way for one population or another. But the therapist doesn't leave with the skill of, now I can go do feeding therapy and I'm a feeding therapist. They leave with the skill of, now I know how to use this tool that you taught me to use.
Greg :
Got you.
Deb:
But it's limited.
Greg :
Right.
Deb:
So I think that's helpful. At least it's fun. It's been so much great fun to embrace a team of people who are just as passionate about feeding as we've been.
Greg :
That's awesome. That's awesome. So you're basically creating feeding therapists and now trying to do it all throughout the country, correct?
Deb:
Yes.
Greg :
That's awesome. And you're doing it basically online.
Deb:
Yes.
Greg :
And I know that as your coach, I know that you recently started your online program, and you got some people that are starting the process or about to start the process with you. How does it feel now going into the online space? Because you're fairly new to it. So let's talk about the struggles and all that crazy stuff.
Deb:
Terrifying sometimes and then really fun other times. For me, my whole purpose is in, am I helping? And so just, like, constantly getting that feedback of, like, here's something I want to give. Am I helping you? And the feedback, being positive has been really fun. Right. And I think made better products. But, yeah, the transition to online is not 100% easy. When we recorded my program, that, again, I've been doing this program a very short ten years, so I should feel comfy with that. Right.
Deb:
And if I was sitting in a class of 30 people teaching it, I would feel so comfy. But being in front of a camera teaching it is a new jam.
Greg :
Yeah. Crazy.
Deb:
It is. And so, yeah, learning new things is always hard.
Greg :
Derek, let me ask you this. So you've watched this ascension from being non business owners to brick and. Well, yeah, I mean, technically, brick and know business owners, and then now you're going into the online space harder, easier. Both of them sucked. What would you say?
Derek:
I think it's different for both of us, how we feel about it, because I'm a little more comfortable with the tech side.
Greg :
Okay. Got you.
Derek:
It's just a different experience for both of us. I think I'm excited about it. Yeah.
Greg :
Awesome. Well, I just want to tell you all this. I want to acknowledge a couple of things. What I really love is that you all have not been entrepreneurs for 10, 15, 20 years you've been in the space. But I just love the fact that in both instances, I've been in your world for two months, but in both instances, you all have just gone all in, and it's really amazing. If you would not have told me how long you were in this world and with the amount of therapists you have and the amount of people that you've helped and the amount of clients that you are, I would have thought that you have been doing this for 2025 years in business, but you've really only been doing it for less than three. And the results that you all have been able to create is because you've gone all in. And I love the fact that online you're also choosing to go all in.
Greg :
And all in is tough. It's tough. And most people are not willing to bet on themselves. And I love the fact that your partnership is pushing the other person to bet on themselves when they don't want to, and vice versa. Right. And so I just want to honor that. It's really a cool partnership that I'm seeing here, and I think you've inspired the audience. So anyways, what is the best way for people to get a hold of you? Can I just put it in the description below, or do you have a certain email site or somewhere for people to go to?
Deb:
Yeah, I think the description is with, with going on to all the new tech stuff. One of the things is learning the right words.
Greg :
Okay. All right, well, here's what we'll do. So what we'll do is in description, I'll put a link to where you can find out about Deb's feeding therapy program. She basically helps therapists become competent, entry level feeding therapists. We ain't going to kill nobody in a very short amount of time. And I love the fact that she's helping people do that. So, Deb and Derek, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I appreciate you both.
